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GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???

Simon1

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I could really use some advice or help on a new PC build. I am confused by the bios settings for the Marvell & Intel Sata ports. Both controllers allow 3 bios settings on a GA-Z68XP-UD3 F9 bios mother board, these being IDE or RAIDxhd or AHCI.
I have 2 Corsair Force GT 120gb SSD's that I want to use in Raid 0 on the Sata3_0 & Sata3_1 ports but I don't understand the differing bios settings of AHCI or RAIDxhd.
I have tried to install Win7 64 bit-Pro by installing the drivers via F6 for the Intel & Marvell controllers with the bios set at AHCI for both of these controllers. The install process see’s all the SSD’s but will not let them configure as RAID 0 disks.
If I install Win 7 on the Intel SATA ports set to RAIDxhd in the bios, I don’t need to add the drivers via F6, but as the trim command is unsupported I read or feel that I should be setting the bios to AHCI over RAIDxhd??? Unless of course this Mother boards bios RAIDxhd setting includes AHCI and is the better setting? I intent to set the two WD Caviar Blacks in a second raid 0 array and use the 60gb mSata as a cache via Intel rapid storage technology. I doubt I will be able to do this if the WD Black HDD’s are in a Raid 0 array on the Marvell Gsata3-6 & GSata3_7 ports? Any thoughts on Raid stripe size (4K) also appreciated along with a point in the right direction re Trim support or another technology that will keep the SSD’d running well?
Thanks Simon

F5BJR

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2012, 01:15:10 am »
*
Installation in AHCI or RAID

AHCI is AHCI , RAID is RAID

for you if you install in RAID mode

1 - for INTEL port RAID mode in BIOS
2 - reboot
3 - key CTRL 'I'  in BIOS start
4 - look in INTEL Matrix for configure your RAID

restart the computer and install OS with F6 floppy drivers for WINXP

---

For the Marvell port the configuration is all in BIOS

1 - use RAID for Marvell port
2 - start in BIOS Marvel RAID configuration for use your disks
3 - restart

install OS as before but F6 with RAID / Marvell drivers
 
**

In your documentation you have the same informations

Pierre
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6x2Go KINGSTON 9905403-084
ENERMAX Modu 82+
Sharkoon REBEL12
2*HD5770SingleSlot+PCI-HD4350
2xSENSY 26'
2xBOX 5HD HotPlug
3xBOX 34HD MaxinPower
2x AD4SR5HPMU Addonics 8x1ToWDGreen 
4x 1TO RAID10 ICH10+1 BACKUP OS
2 * RR622 HighPoint
Sata 88SX7042  
AverMedia H727

Simon1

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 05:50:09 pm »
Thanks for reply, but telling me ahci is ahci wasn't really helpful. I read that Microsoft are looking to put trim support in their rst technology if aching is enabled. I cant enable raid0 when I install with the bios set to ahci so appear to be stuck in a loop. What's the difference between ahci and sata thanks simon

Lsdmeasap

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2012, 12:11:14 pm »
TRIM will be coming soon for Intel RAID as well, just so you know.

Connect your SSD's to Intel ports SATA3_0 and _1, then set the BIOS as follows for that controller


Integrated Peripherals

eXtreme Hard Drive  ........................ Disabled
ICH SATA Control Mode  ) ..................... RAID
SATA Port0-3 Native Mode   ............. Either will be fine

No drivers are needed during windows 7 install for the Intel RAID ports (All drivers are included in windows 7 installer, IDE, AHCI, and RAID).  You can however install them if you want, during the install, and it is suggested to update them to the latest after the install is finished.

These are the drivers you want, if you want to manually install them during windows install, but again this is not necessary
http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?agr=Y&ProdId=2101&DwnldID=20625&ProductFamily=Chipsets&ProductLine=Chipset+Software&ProductProduct=Intel%c2%ae+Rapid+Storage+Technology&lang=eng

And these are the ones you want to install in windows
http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?agr=Y&ProdId=2101&DwnldID=20624&ProductFamily=Chipsets&ProductLine=Chipset+Software&ProductProduct=Intel%c2%ae+Rapid+Storage+Technology&lang=eng

You can have two separate RAID arrays on the Intel controller, so you can put your WD's there too if you want, and it would probably be best.   I'm not sure on the cache from Intel mSATA over Marvell RAID, probably not, but you can put those on the Intel ports anyway so you should be fine doing it that way instead.

Right now there is NO TRIM for RAID, but it should be coming very soon from what we can see in Intel driver change logs, as in next version of drivers possibly.

You want the largest stripe size for RAID 0, this is 128k on Intel RAID.   You do have to align your SSD or RAID array before you install windows onto it, and I suggest you do that manually because you are already talking so many different things about hard drives you might mess up the windows automatic alignment method (No offense meant at all), plus it's best to do manually anyway especially since you are using RAID

Here's how to do it manually with the Windows 7 Install DVD


Boot to CD, choose repair, then advanced, then command prompt:

Diskpart commands to align and create a partition
 
Diskpart >List Disk
 
(Here note the Disk # you want to align and create on based on size of drive, if only one drive then you are fine disk 0 will be the one you need)

Diskpart > Select Disk 0
(Or other disk number if need be)
 
Diskpart > List Partition
(Just to ensure you have the correct disk listed and no partitions are found)

Diskpart > Clean
(Removes any previous partition table information, and or MBR's)
 
Diskpart > Create Partition Primary Align=1024
(To create and align your partition)
 
Diskpart> Format Quick FS=NTFS
(To Quick format-NTFS)
 
Diskpart > List Partition
(To check partition was created properly and aligned)
 
Diskpart > Active
(To set partition Active for OS Install)
 
Diskpart > Exit

Done!
 
Clean and simple for those who have only one disk connected and need no explanations
 
Diskpart > Select Disk 0
Diskpart > Clean
Diskpart > Create Partition Primary Align=1024
Diskpart > Format Quick FS=NTFS
Diskpart > List Partition
Diskpart > Active
Diskpart > Exit

Simon1

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2012, 07:03:56 pm »
Thanks thats brilliant. I took a flyer and had already installed as you suggested and everything runs smoothly. The mSata on the Intel controller wont accelerate the GSata ports on the Marvell. I didn't align the SDD though drives and went for the smallest stripe size of 4K, is this a major issue? Everything seems to be running fine? Thanks for the update, I enjoy building the PC's up but its always good to have some good guidance and help.

Kind regards
Simno

Lsdmeasap

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2012, 07:27:58 pm »
Great to hear you got everything setup and it's running smoothly!

I didn't think Intel would accelerate across the Marvell controller, but wasn't sure.   It is based on Intel RAID, so I thought it probably wouldn't work but wasn't 100% Sure.

Yes, you want to align the partition for sure, and you want 128K stripe size.   I would definitely reinstall as you cannot correct those without a reinstall.


Simon1

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 01:29:48 pm »
Thanks LSDMEASAP,

Before I started again I verified the ssd raid 0 alignment using the following commands.

Diskpart
List disk
Select disk 0 (0 being the x2 ssd drives in raid 0)
List partition

The result as below

Partition # Type       Size     Offset
------------- --------    --------- ----------
Partition 1 System    100MB 1204KB
Partition 2 Reserved 128MB   101MB
Partition 3 Primary    223GB  229MB

My thoughts on the above are, the partitions are aligned as the offsets 101MB & 229MB when converted to KB by *1024 are devisable by 4?

i.e.
101MB * 1024 = 103424 / 4 = 25856
&
229MB * 1024 = 234496 / 4 = 58624

I'm not sure What partition 2 is? All 3 were created by a fresh windows 7 64 bit install. Any ideas??

I have checked my x2 WD Black drives on Disk 1 and got the following results

Partition # Type       Size      Offset
------------- --------    ---------  ----------
Partition 1 Reserved 128MB   17KB
Partition 2 Primary   2794GB  129MB 

I'm unsure here if Partiton 1 throws partition 2 out of line. I dont believe it would.

17kb is not devisible by 4 but Partition 2 at 129MB I feel is correct as 129MB * 1024= 132096 / 4 = 33024

Do I need to follow your proceedure here to correct anything, the stripe size for the WB Blacks are 128 kb

Diskpart > Select Disk 0
Diskpart > Clean
Diskpart > Create Partition Primary Align=1024
Diskpart > Format Quick FS=NTFS
Diskpart > List Partition
Diskpart > Active
Diskpart > Exit

to allign them.

Do you agree with the above, Is my thinking correct. I'm quite happy with the 4kb stripe size at present, I think as everything is running well? Intel  RST suggests a 16kb stripe yet there seems to be a lot of confliciting speculation / conjecture on the best stripe size, most common argument being yours of 128kb?

Kind regards
Simon

Lsdmeasap

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2012, 09:10:52 pm »
It looks good to me for your first disk, odd to see three partitions though, but I think that is due to using a cache disk.   I believe that creates a dynamic RAID partition that spans across both drives (cache drive and the drive it's accelerating), and inside that would be the actual RAID array partition.

You can verify any drives partition alignment by checking with AS SSD, open this benchmark and select any drive letter you want to verify alignment on.  It will show the alignment offset value in Red or Green letters, with OK or Bad beside the offset value.  Scroll to very bottom for download
http://alex-is.de/PHP/fusion/downloads.php?download_id=9

As for your second drive, you can check with the above as well, but since it's not an SSD the alignment doesn't matter, IE it does not need to be aligned at all.

The diskpart procedure I mentioned is for aligning drives before you install windows, or on an empty drive you plan to use for storage or windows install at a later date.   You cannot use it on a drive that already contains data.

128KB stripe is best for OS SSD's arrays, 4-16KB stripe would only be good for a server setup or something like that, were very tiny files were accessed constantly.   Larger is better for your OS really, and I wish Intel would actually increase the allowed size to 256 or 512, the only way to use those currently is with expensive RAID cards!

Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2012, 02:38:13 am »
Couple questions for what Simon and myself are trying to do:

-Is there a benefit to the adding the msata card if you have a RAID?  Can the smart response technology make it go even faster?

-Can you add a 3rd drive to the marvell array on the other ports meaning Gsata3_6, Gsata3_7, and another?  The manual indicates is is possible but says that when you cross "system performance across the array may vary.."  It seems to imply it is possible, but I haven't been able to get it to work.

Lsdmeasap

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2012, 06:22:53 am »
Yes, the mSATA could still speed up your HDD RAID array.   I'm not sure how much that would be though.  I do know that you can enable and disable the acceleration, so you can test both ways and see if it helps.   

And since you mentioned this, I'm not sure if it's even possible to do that.   Since you'd be creating an array with the RST program, it creates an array to accelerate disks  itself, so I'm not sure the program even allows that type of setup (Raid within RAID) - you'd have to test and see if it's even possible.

You do not want to use Marvell RAID, at all, unless you are forced to do so due to not having other ports.   This applies especially to SSD's, but also for HDD to but the issues are probably not as apparent with HDD's.   

But to answer you, yes you can stripe across the Marvell controllers, and even Marvell and Intel if you want, but those would be software stripes only and cannot be bootable.  In order to create one of these array's you must use disk manager and create a software stripe, so of course they are slow to begin with due to that, and add on-top of that the slowness of the Marvell in RAID anyway and you've got a mess.    Now, I have not tested Marvel RAID on Z68 boards with more than one Marvell controller, so you may be able to create an actual array across them now without a software in windows stripe, you'll have to see in the BIOS RAID creation page, but again it's not going to be ideal anyway so don't waste your time :D

If you need me to test that I can, I have Z68-UD3H here I could check with, but I'd rather not set it up and test unless you are seriously needing to know, and don't care about all the slowness I mentioned.  I will test though if you need me to, just let me know.

You can also stripe over all the Intel controller if you want, 6Gb/s + 3Gb/s, this can be bootable

Simon1

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2012, 11:04:26 am »
The first drive (Set) is a raid 0 comprised of x2 Corair 120gb SSD's no aceleration on Intels I/O Sata 0 & 1 this has the 3 partitions and doesnt use a cache disk?

My Second drive I refer to is a Raid 0 comprised of x2 WD Black drives on Sata 2 & 3 with Intel RST acelerating them after creation by adding part of my mSata drive on Sata 5 as a Cache. It is this raid that has the 3rd disk Cache.

1) Don't HDD's need aligning? (As for your second drive, you can check with the above as well, but since it's not an SSD the alignment doesn't matter, IE it does not need to be aligned at all.)


1) Would you reinstall everything, I'm getting a win experience of 7.6 with 7.9 for the HDD.

2) If I reinstall using your alignment method I will get I partition, is this OK because the Win 7 install DVD method creates a 100mb partition for some reason do I need that or do I need to leave any space for garbage collection or programs running in the back ground. (This question isnt based with much knowledge on my part!)

3) Having not used forums before can we add any recognition to your Kudos for your help? Do you work for Gigabyte?

Thanks
Simon

Lsdmeasap

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2012, 12:21:39 pm »
That is odd then!   Not sure what happened, or why that would be like it is if you are not accelerating it?   A normal windows install only has two partitions if you let windows do the setup and partition alignment.  It would be the 100MB reserved hidden system partition, and then C drive the main partition.

The accelerated RAID array may be the reason there is that third partition then, as the acceleration program creates a fake RAID array combining the accelerated drives and the drive you cache onto.   Although, that still sounds odd as it shouldn't involve the main windows SSD at all.   Maybe that already had a partition on it when you setup windows, and it just left it there?   Hard to say since I didn't set it up - ya know what I mean haha!   

1. No, normal hard drives do not usually need aligned at all.

Windows experience is not a benchmark you should rely on for any gauge of performance, it's only meant to let you know what software Microsoft thinks you can buy or download from them based on their scores.    You need to use a real HDD or SSD benchmark to gauge performance, and then compare that to others with similar hardware.

Yes, I would personally reinstall the windows drive, just to get rid of the odd partition.   And since I'm talking personally, I also align my own partition, thus not allowing windows to create the hidden system partition, but that's up to you.  Yes, if you use my method above you will have only a single aligned partition for windows, with no system reserved partition.  The system reserved partition is only needed to boot from if you have issues, such as needing to run startup repair, or other system repair tools, all of which you can run easily from the windows install DVD.  That is what I always do, when and if needed, which is rare.

See, here is my current SSD, you can also see my Vista setup is the same single partition, and Drive E is also a secondary windows 7 setup, all of those use only single partitions




I am not familiar with your SSD's, so I'm not sure if it's common practice still to have to leave extra space for GC or not, many older SSD's yes this was needed, but many of the more recent generations do not need this.   I only use Crucial drives, which are not Sandforce based, so I don't really have any experience with your type of drives, sorry about that.   You'll have to look around at their forum, or ask in a new thread, and if you do just browse around be sure you are looking at more current threads not older ones.  I do know there is already hidden space on the drives you cannot access, that is used for wear leveling and GC, so you shouldn't have to reserve more, so any answer you find will probably just be users own personal preferences.

Here is some info on what I mentioned about the drives already having space set aside for various duties, it's a little old, but you'll see what I mean about it already having reserved area for GC , wear leveling,ect.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3690/the-impact-of-spare-area-on-sandforce-more-capacity-at-no-performance-loss

You should look at several reviews of your exact model of SSD and see what they mention regarding this.   If you cannot find several reviews on your exact size of drive then look at the next size up, just make sure it's the same model/family.  If you do decide to leave some spare area, I'd say 7-10GB should be more than plenty.

Also, in case you are not aware and are new to SSD's, do not defrag your SSD, this is not needed and can slow them down and shorten their lifespan

Thanks for your kind words, they are most appreciated!  I believe the applaud link under my user name here gives me thanks or kudos, I'm not super familiar with this forum setup here either but I think that's what you are looking for :)   I do not work for Gigabyte, but I am directly in close contact with them, so I guess you could say I work with them but not for them.   I'm just a regular end user like yourself, I just like to help my fellow Gigabyte users the best I can - when I can!




Simon1

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2012, 10:04:10 pm »
Well I took your advice and went for a fresh install via your method but it didn't work. my western digital blacks hdd's are 3tb so efi mode is enabled in bios. Alignment went well but when I went to install win7 got this message 'windows cant be installed on this disk. The selected disk has an MBR partition table. On EFI systems, Windows can only be installed to GPT disks.'

Second question, when we align the disks we use the command align=1024, what does the number 1024 do or its relevance.

What's a 4mb cluster? I assume its not a stripe?

Sorry for lumping you with question after question

Thanks again simon

Lsdmeasap

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 06:52:02 am »
Sorry, I didn't think of that!   Do the windows install again, using my method, but with EFI disabled in the BIOS.

Then once you get windows installed and setup with updated drivers, then you can switch the BIOS to EFI and build the RAID array.  At least I believe that should work.   Sorry if you do all this hassle again and it doesn't, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't as you can have MBR and GPT on different disks, so it shouldn't be a problem, I just think windows told you that because you had EFI enabled ahead of time without actually needing it yet.    I could be wrong though, I'm an honest guy and I'm not always right and I'll be the first to admit it! :)

The 1024 is the number of hard drive sectors set aside for the alignment, 1024 sectors is 2048 KB of disk space that the partition will be offset by.  So data will begin being written on after that offset.  That's the quickie on what alignment is :D

4 MB cluster is just that, a cluster and is not a stripe.  This (4 MB) is the default NTFS Cluster size, you should not change that, unless you are diong it for some specific purpose, and if so you would already have read into what you are changing and why.  So for general users leave it as is, do not change it or try to set in any programs.

No problems about the questions!   I'm always happy to help, when I can of course! :)

Ohh, and here's some info for you on stripe sizes, I still recommend 128K (Largest option in the Intel ROM)
http://articles.centennialarts.com/2010/10/27/selecting-the-appropriate-raid-stripe-size/
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/raid/concepts/perfStripe-c.html
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/raid/levels/single_Level0.htm

Simon1

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Re: GA-Z68XP-UD3 WIN7 INSTALL TO X2 SSD RAID0 & X2 WD BLACK RAIDO AHCI???
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 09:09:42 am »
I had 3 partitions on my SSD when I first asked for help. They were

Partition 1 System    100MB  1024KB
Partition 2 Reserved 128MB  101MB
Partition 3 Primary    223GB   229MB

I recall viewing them in Disk management and Partition 1 was system / install created and called the EFI partiton. Still no idea what 2 was, although I agree with you it was possibly left over from my first install attempt?

Taking the above into account and hopfully last question for now, do I need that EFI partiton in which case I should do a windows managed install or should I go for the manual install as per the instructions in your last post? I dont know if the EFI partiton is / was important?

Thanks Simon